This episode of #TBNE features Business Strategist, Author (soon to be), and Adjunct Professor Matthew Lee Sawyer as we talk about his book that will be out soon called, "Make It In America". We talked a bit about his journey to being a professor, how that helped give him the confidence to write a book, and the effort and impact he wanted to make with writing this book. Be sure to check out Matt’s book, now available for presale, at www.matthewleesawyer.com. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review.
This episode of #TBNE features Business Strategist, Author (soon to be), and Adjunct Professor Matthew Lee Sawyer as we talk about his book that will be out soon called, "Make It In America". We talked a bit about his journey to being a professor, how that helped give him the confidence to write a book, and the effort and impact he wanted to make with writing this book.
Be sure to check out Matt’s book, now available for presale, at www.matthewleesawyer.com.
Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review.
Connect with Matthew Lee Sawyer:
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Show Produced by: Niranjan Deshpande (Nick), Broken Frames Studio, www.brokenframesstudio.com
Creative Director: Maxim Sokolov, www.maximsokolov.com
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EP MATT SAWYER BOOK
INTRO
00:00:07:10 - 00:00:28:14
Rob Napoli
How we doing, everybody? This is Rob Napoli, You're back for another episode of the Bare Necessities podcast. I'm going to apologize now, you can hear a little bit of a background noise of a jackhammer going on outside all week. There's been no construction. But of course, day of recording, they're going to be right outside my window doing construction. But that was not going to stop the show from going on.
MAIN VIDEO
00:00:28:14 - 00:00:51:24
Rob Napoli
And we have a friend of mine who I met about a year ago here in New York City that kind of acted over quite a number of different things around branding and marketing. Matt Sawyer is a business and marketing strategist who has helped build dozens of successful brands and startup businesses for both us, and specifically international companies, international companies coming into the US market.
00:00:52:07 - 00:01:20:07
Rob Napoli
He's currently the managing director of Strategy for consulting firm called Rocket Market Development, and he also teaches business strategy and communications marketing communications at Columbia University and NYU. And what we're here to talk about today is he has a new book coming out this fall titled Make it in America How International Companies and Entrepreneurs Can Successfully Enter and Scale into the US market, and we're pretty excited to get into that.
00:01:20:07 - 00:01:23:04
Rob Napoli
So Matt, thank you so much for coming on, my friend.
00:01:23:21 - 00:01:30:14
Matt Sawyer
Well, thank you. Thank you, Rob. And hello to everyone out there and Bear Nation.
00:01:30:14 - 00:01:43:12
Rob Napoli
Yeah, we're excited to have you. And I spent a little while. I mean, I think the last time we spoke or caught up was a few months ago for I think for your master's class over the summer.
00:01:44:06 - 00:02:03:19
Matt Sawyer
You were very generous. Were very generous. And you came on to speak to my students at NYU and gave them a lot of really good insights in terms of what happens behind the scenes, in terms of from from a recruiter's perspective, you know, what they're looking for in terms of talent, in terms of, you know, how they evaluate people.
00:02:03:19 - 00:02:10:13
Matt Sawyer
And that was so helpful for the students to sort of get that real inside inside scoop Yeah.
00:02:10:13 - 00:02:36:09
Rob Napoli
Well, I'm glad. I'm glad it was helpful. And I always love, you know, bring it back by all the recruitment days, but also the kind of the personal brand side of things. And I think it's really important to since it was an international class, they're coming off their internship portion and looking at graduating here this year as they came off the summer semester to the final spring semester and our fall semester, this really understanding, how do you how do you leverage that?
00:02:36:09 - 00:03:11:21
Rob Napoli
Like that's so hard? And I think that's a lot that's really hard for a lot of people in general when it comes to branding and the way we communicate our brand both personally and professionally. Right. It's just something that founders and entrepreneurs struggle with as they come into the US market. So before we kind of launch into into the book, you know, I always like to ask teachers this is I think it's wow the cross-border interesting but what is it what do you like most about teaching and what do you like least about teaching?
00:03:12:23 - 00:03:32:18
Matt Sawyer
Yeah, what I love is that, you know, I love lots of things, you know, certainly in terms of I feel as if I'm making a real impact and that, you know, connecting with the students. And then afterwards, a lot of them have kept in touch with me and told me, you know, how helpful I was. And I had one student who's now the product manager of Tick Tock.
00:03:32:18 - 00:03:56:12
Matt Sawyer
And so that's really all I've always very satisfying. And, you know, I learn a lot from it too. You know, I learn from the students, you know, about what's happening about, you know, all sorts of things, reevaluating some of the the concepts and the the things that I to have taken for granted. And it's so it's always so very satisfying.
00:03:56:12 - 00:04:23:23
Matt Sawyer
I guess the thing I hate most is the grading of the papers. Like right now I have 55 students and I really try to give each one of them, you know, you know, some sort of advice in terms of what you could do better. You know, how could this be a little bit better? And because I feel that that's my role as the teacher is not just say, hey, this is great, you got an A, but, you know, this is what you could have done better and that that is time consuming.
00:04:23:23 - 00:04:27:03
Matt Sawyer
So I guess that's the worst part of it.
00:04:27:03 - 00:04:46:21
Rob Napoli
Yeah. I always wondered why some of my professors and teachers would want to do so many pop quizzes and things like that. Just might work for you just to make sure I know my stuff. So a lot more work for you, you know? But you know, it is interesting and I love working with youth as well, especially Gen Z and looking at those coming out.
00:04:46:21 - 00:05:07:09
Rob Napoli
I think I feel personally that a lot of professors out there haven't done a whole lot and the role I think we're seeing a trend to more of that, a lot more adjunct professor, a lot more professors coming into being a teacher later in their career after running a business or doing something in their field. But you know what I mean?
00:05:07:09 - 00:05:23:21
Rob Napoli
When I was going to school and I still see it a lot, is that you have a lot of professors that haven't been there and done that, which, you know, makes it kind of tough when they're teaching theory. But like theory is only as good as a paper, right? Like, right. There's a lot of great marketing theory. Is that a great business theory?
00:05:23:21 - 00:05:46:24
Rob Napoli
There's a lot of great start up theory, but it will smack you on your ass the minute you start putting into practice because there's just so many variables that a book can't cover and, you know, it's something that I find interesting. And, you know, you're somebody who has spent a career a decade and a half, two decades in your career, across a number of different businesses, scaling, you know, international companies.
00:05:46:24 - 00:05:54:03
Rob Napoli
So how have you leverage kind of your past experience into the way that you teach in your classes?
00:05:54:15 - 00:06:13:04
Matt Sawyer
Yeah, well, I was very fortunate in terms of having lots of different worked in lots of different industries. I started in advertising and in advertising where you have lots of different. I first started off on a computer working with computers and the next thing I was working on Campbell Soup and then Miller Beer, and then we helped Hundai come into the country.
00:06:13:04 - 00:06:31:18
Matt Sawyer
So working in advertising you have to learn things really quickly. And so that was always, you know, something that gave me confidence that I could do. And it was a skill that I picked up and then, you know, moving in. And they worked it. At one point I was vice president marketing at Snapple. I worked for a consulting firm, Digitas.
00:06:31:18 - 00:06:54:05
Matt Sawyer
And you know, so I had lots of different experiences. And so I can bring those stories into the classroom and then, you know, connect the it's really funny. Up at Columbia, the first course that they had me teach was a course called The Dynamics of Persuasion, and it went all the way back to Aristotle and all of these things, and I have never studied any of that.
00:06:54:15 - 00:07:14:15
Matt Sawyer
And so I had to study it and I was like, Wow, you know, that's why when I did this at Snapple, that's why that worked. Oh, you know, that's why that didn't work. And so it was really sort of connecting those dots and almost like learning later has really been out that advantage. But it's been fun and I share that.
00:07:14:15 - 00:07:31:07
Matt Sawyer
I'm try to be as honest and open with the students because they know when you're bullshitting them, they know when you are, you know, just trying to make something up. And so I read this book that they gave us called The Courage to Teach and that you really have to be out there and you just bare your soul.
00:07:31:07 - 00:07:51:11
Matt Sawyer
You bear everything because, you know, that's what the way to connect with the students and that's what they're expecting. And yeah, you know, it doesn't always work. And there's certainly have been some students that have said, now, I don't I don't get this guy. But for the most part, it's been it's been positive.
00:07:51:11 - 00:08:11:21
Rob Napoli
That's awesome. So as you kind of, you know, looking at, you know, your background, bringing in, you know, large companies as well as startups and you know, I kind of mentioned, you know, putting into practice what you teach. How has that translated into the book? And I guess taking a step back, why did you want to write a book in the first place?
00:08:12:21 - 00:08:34:19
Matt Sawyer
Well, the funny story is, I'll tell you, Rob and Bear Nation is that this was my COVID project. Is is that I had been helping some international companies. I've been working similar with you with some of the accelerators. I was working with the Canadian tech hub and working with some of the European American Chamber of Commerce. So I was doing some consulting work.
00:08:34:19 - 00:08:56:16
Matt Sawyer
And then when COVID hit at NYU, I typically teach in the spring, but their enrollment was way down. They have a huge international population, the student body, more than any other school. And I think the world. And so they didn't need me because they had fewer students. The story now is they have more students than they had, you know, before they started.
00:08:57:12 - 00:09:17:19
Matt Sawyer
But I had that free time and it was sort of a luxury of time that I could then to vote to this project. And because of COVID, it was so easy to connect. I connected with over 150 people in 40 different countries in terms of doing research and then collecting. And thankfully my wife, her job was was steady.
00:09:17:19 - 00:09:45:09
Matt Sawyer
And so she was able to be very supportive and give me that time to be able to do this. And and I think it felt for me, it felt it filled a real gap. It filled a need, you know, in talking to entrepreneurs, talking to people from other countries, and that, you know, the U.S. is really complicated. And there, whether it's our legal system or immigration system financing, there's so many things that are complicated.
00:09:45:09 - 00:10:10:19
Matt Sawyer
And what I try to do is I try to explain the rules, explain, you know, what it is. So that was I use this term when someone comes in, they're entering with eyes wide open. You still need to hire experts. You need to hire sales experts. You need to hire lawyers. You need to hire expert local marketers. But at least you know what you need and what questions to ask.
00:10:11:07 - 00:10:17:03
Matt Sawyer
And so I look at the book as sort of a primer for that.
00:10:17:03 - 00:10:37:22
Rob Napoli
I love it. So I think that you kind of highlighted a quite a few things here with oh one. It's awesome that you had the support to kind of go through this. But, you know, COVID was a, you know, everyone it's crazy to think that. It's like people it's either prayer post, it's like we're in a time warp.
00:10:37:22 - 00:11:09:20
Rob Napoli
But, you know, the fact that there was a lot of things we could leverage, right? I wrote a book during COVID as well. That was one of my projects and launching this podcast was another. But taking that step back and taking the time to do the research based on those connections and leveraging that is is really interesting. And we'll get into a little bit about, you know, those different things, the advice that we give ups because I think the really interesting piece to this is that we've forgotten a little bit about what a start up is, right?
00:11:10:03 - 00:11:34:21
Rob Napoli
A lot of companies that are in the US market are startups in terms of the starting up in a new market, but they're growth stage companies, right? They're doing a million, 2 million, 3 million, 5 million plus companies that are true startups tend to be very different financially from a company scaling. Right. And so sometimes we lap a lot of this advice into startup advice outside of success, what it's really like now that's a growth stage success story.
00:11:34:21 - 00:11:55:12
Rob Napoli
This is a startup story and here is that swing from startup to growth stages. So it's really always fun to kind of listen to how that, you know, how that kind of gets put into practice. And you see that differently too, right? When you're bringing, say, a company doing 50 million and another market coming to the U.S. versus a company doing five in their home market.
00:11:55:12 - 00:12:15:17
Rob Napoli
Right. The way that those things get looked at are very different. But there's still a lot of things that are complicated with the U.S. system that you still need to kind of set up legal tax, accounting, talent, you know, product market fit. You still have to do customer research to make sure that the market's there. So a lot of these different things.
00:12:15:17 - 00:12:28:00
Rob Napoli
So what was what do you think was one of the biggest surprises when you were doing your research or one of the things that surprised you most through your research of talking to 150 plus companies and prepping for this book?
00:12:28:19 - 00:12:56:13
Matt Sawyer
Yeah. So the approach that I used was, is that first like I took the approach of finding out what people wanted to know, you know, what were the questions. So I did, you know, we have both of us work with the we've acceleration so they were very helpful in giving me that access to their database. And we sent out a questionnaire to I think it was 300, 500 people trying to find out what are the things that you worry about, what are the obstacles that you see?
00:12:56:13 - 00:13:21:20
Matt Sawyer
You know, if you want to come into the U.S., what are the things that you want to know? And so then from there then I started they wanted to know about how to financing about you know, big thing was about cultural, you know, how do we overcome cultural issues and problems. So from there then I took that and then tried to dissect each one of those questions.
00:13:21:20 - 00:13:46:23
Matt Sawyer
So I guess that, you know, what was most surprising is, is that there wasn't a lot of difference between, let's say, middle stage companies and startups. The big difference there was is in terms of the financing. And so for startups, you know, the whole getting the financing and whether you go to the investment bank route or venture capital route or the bank system, you know, that's a lot more complicated.
00:13:46:23 - 00:13:53:23
Matt Sawyer
Whereas the more established companies kind of didn't need to worry about that aspect as much. Yeah.
00:13:54:19 - 00:14:17:20
Rob Napoli
Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, a lot in advance. And the questions I get is, Hey, Rob, we help me get funding and it's like, are you set up in the U.S. yet? Do you have a debt or do you have these things? Do you have any sales? Like it's really hard to get funding. And right now, even more so with inflation being so high and a lot of things happening and you're seeing a trend, we saw this trend.
00:14:17:20 - 00:14:40:20
Rob Napoli
So right. We had some different things happen in 2018 and 2019 where a lot of money was spent in early stage and then it went really big. It's a series D rounds. You saw some huge series C, series D and some big series B and I got 2019. The kind of trend was like, oh, 2020. We're going to go back to like earlier stage and risk and then 2020 happen.
00:14:40:20 - 00:14:59:23
Rob Napoli
People put things on pause as we've come out of it. With high inflation, companies don't want to invest in pre revenue or they don't want to invest in a risky invest in risky companies that are not established, especially here in the U.S. market. And so until you have some of those like key traction, like the thought of getting funding is really tough.
00:14:59:23 - 00:15:28:04
Rob Napoli
In fact, I'm helping a company fundraise that's a pre-revenue wearable device and Iot and I know that wearable devices having any sort of hardware, it's like almost impossible to get funding for and for your revenue is even harder. I've been there, done it before, but it's really interesting because we still have this, like idea that if you have a good idea and a great pitch like Adam Neumann, you're going to get funding and that's just no longer the case.
00:15:29:00 - 00:15:50:07
Rob Napoli
Right. So talking about your book a little bit, you know, with this process and putting it out, what what do you hope to impact? You know, when you look at e, we talk about there's a lot of things that companies have to do. What do you really hope is the impact of the book when it releases?
00:15:51:00 - 00:16:07:20
Matt Sawyer
Well, you know, a couple of things. I think number one is, is that I want to help people. I want to help entrepreneurs. There's an aspect of the book. I have 15 different case studies in there. So you can learn from other people and see some of the mistakes. And, you know, for most of them right there, they're generally positive stories.
00:16:08:01 - 00:16:44:22
Matt Sawyer
Yeah. So I think that in terms of that. But you know, the other part of it is, is that I really believe in a we need as a country, we need more people, we need more companies to come in. We need more entrepreneurial, we need growth. We need talent to come to the U.S. You know, our population is getting older and, you know, we're almost becoming like Japan, where you have a stagnant economy because of this aging and because, you know, we haven't nurtured the growth.
00:16:44:22 - 00:17:18:14
Matt Sawyer
So and our country was founded on the strength and the power and the ideas of immigrants coming here. And I really feel that that's important. I came from an immigrant grandparents that came here, started a a store and sold it. And, you know, so I feel as if, you know, I want to give back and I want to help people on their you know, I was lucky enough to in the book talk about, you know, being able to kind of live and find my American dream and know I'd really like to help other people do that, too.
00:17:18:20 - 00:17:42:01
Rob Napoli
Awesome. And so what was the in the writing process? Did you ever have that kind of, oh, shit moment? What am I doing and why am I doing this? Are you ever kind of like get nervous or feel that you're just imposter syndrome kicking in? Like, why am I writing a book? Or did you not go through that at all?
00:17:42:16 - 00:18:02:20
Matt Sawyer
It was more about I just didn't know what I was getting into, you know, is the so the first thing I did was, is that, you know, so, so I got a publisher, you know, that was the first thing I did and sold a publisher on the idea because I don't think my wife would have let me spend a year working on a project with with, you know, just the hope that this thing might, might sell.
00:18:03:13 - 00:18:21:17
Matt Sawyer
So that was the first and it was sort of going through various stages and each stage was different. And then, you know, the hard part was getting is, is, you know, you getting that ugly first draft done. And then the next phase was in terms of the refinement and the editing, which is actually I like doing that part of it.
00:18:23:00 - 00:18:40:20
Matt Sawyer
And then the learning part of it, that was sort of all through the process. So it was just more, I don't know, was just like more I don't know if it's imposter syndrome is just, you know, almost like jumping into a swimming pool, swimming pool and then finding out after this, any water in there?
00:18:41:17 - 00:18:58:21
Rob Napoli
Well, sure. Well, yes. But also, I think maybe like my imposter syndrome had about the week or two weeks before I came out, like right before the official launch. And I was like, oh, shit, is this good enough? And why? So then maybe I'll see you in a few months. But I know that feeling of like, what did I get myself into when I started the project too?
00:18:58:21 - 00:19:12:20
Rob Napoli
When I finished the project, as you've kind of come to a close and the book comes out here and as at the time of recording, you know, two months give or take, it comes out in November, it's still close to the end of September. So yeah.
00:19:12:24 - 00:19:19:01
Matt Sawyer
Yeah. Pre-sales are yeah, yeah, presales are open now. But you know, I think it's going to start to ship late November.
00:19:19:01 - 00:19:27:21
Rob Napoli
Late November. So do you think you'll ever write another book again or do you think that this is the only one or how you feel? And after everything done.
00:19:28:09 - 00:19:49:15
Matt Sawyer
Well, I think a couple of things is that number one is, is that the topic kind of game came to me as I saw this need, I saw this real gap. And so the topic came and I haven't seen another sort of, you know, there isn't another topic that I see like that. So and I'm not sure, you know, I did this project and I'm not sure like where it's going to.
00:19:49:15 - 00:20:08:17
Matt Sawyer
I have this gut feeling it's going to take me to a good place, you know, whether it's speaking engagements, consulting, whether it's, you know, doing some more courses. And my you talked about me doing a course about this book. So I guess I'm kind of open now for what what kind of comes up. Yeah.
00:20:09:18 - 00:20:28:07
Rob Napoli
Yeah, I am. I feel you on that, because when I got done, I was like, oh, I don't know if I want to go through this again, you know, just just that whole process from start to finish. I kind of rushed in. I mean, I procrastinate long enough that I then had to kind of push it to hit my deadlines.
00:20:28:23 - 00:20:50:11
Rob Napoli
I have the next idea, like, I know what I want to write. I just don't know if I'm ready to take that on. But but I will say that when you get done and you see that first copy in your hand and you see people starting to buy it and talk about it, it's a pretty cool feeling to think that a lot of people, I think when I write books, they always talk about, I would love to write a book.
00:20:50:11 - 00:21:11:00
Rob Napoli
I love to this. Not many people do. So the fact that you went out and did it and utilized the time you had to to create something is really cool. And no, I could take that away from you. So, you know, just kudos on that. I'm excited. Thank you. I've had a chance for my listeners out there. I've had a chance to do an advance reading of part of the book.
00:21:11:09 - 00:21:38:04
Rob Napoli
Very interesting. A lot of things that I experience that I deal with as well. But I coach, you know, I definitely I think that to coming back, you know, having you come from a heavy advertising background and having started with big companies and then working to entrepreneurship. Right, you can see some differences in school of thought versus me, who as I always kind of worked in more entrepreneurial start ups.
00:21:38:04 - 00:21:57:03
Rob Napoli
And I've, I've had a few like corporate stints, but I did spend a lot of time in these big companies. And so I have found value to have just like seeing the other side of the coin and kind of listening to that for that, that lens. Because I think that you need both lenses to see what resonates with people and kind of look at it from big to small and small to big.
00:21:57:12 - 00:22:24:01
Rob Napoli
So for those out there, it's it's definitely worth picking up for you if you haven't already out put the pre pre link in the show notes, you can go purchase it but comes out in November and we're excited about it. Matt and I appreciate that you kind of sharing a little bit of your journey and sharing some thoughts on it before I close out the this this this episode though.
00:22:24:01 - 00:22:49:07
Rob Napoli
Yeah, I always like to ask kind of a piece of advice. So if you're thinking about this, take it from your teaching lens right? And you have a number of young entrepreneurs that are saying, Hey, Matt, how do we where do we start? What do we do? That's a big loaded question. How would you answer that?
00:22:50:04 - 00:23:20:12
Matt Sawyer
Yeah, I think the thing is, is that it's really the first part is in terms of getting a good plan, getting a good idea that, you know, one of the things, particularly international companies coming to the U.S., you know, one of the things is that they sort of said, well, we'll figure it out when we get there. And the similar in terms of so the one idea in terms of really doing the the planning and then sharing that and getting people like even with the book, like after each chapter I had people read it, I had there was a chapter about legal structure and I had lots of lawyers look at it and read it
00:23:20:12 - 00:23:48:04
Matt Sawyer
and give me advice. So getting a lot of input from lots of people and being open to that I think is really important. And then the other thing I still remember, I had one student, he was a very talented fellow. He was South Asian and he had a company that he was having handmade wedding dresses made in India, and then he was bringing them into the U.S. And I remember we had some it was an entrepreneurship class and I had some VCs.
00:23:48:04 - 00:24:09:12
Matt Sawyer
They were there. And he came up to me says, Professor, is this can you help me to introduce me some VCs? Because I really want to get these seed money? And I says, Well, you know, before you do that, well, why do you want to you know, you can raise, you can have self-funded, you can have a nice little business, you can send your kids to private school and you wouldn't have to have someone else as a boss.
00:24:09:12 - 00:24:26:22
Matt Sawyer
You know, you really need to think think it through in terms of what do you want those kind of investor since he ended up going off by himself? I think he had his father do some of the funding and now he's got his own brand and he's got his started, as you know, a second company. And he thanked me.
00:24:26:22 - 00:24:48:14
Matt Sawyer
He said that that was really good advice. Is that because, you know, people sort of see this. They read about the unicorns, they read about the voices. And it all sounds kind of sexy. And but there are other paths and it's a more of, you know, understanding and looking at and evaluating, you know, what is and then also what is what's right for you.
00:24:48:15 - 00:25:10:10
Matt Sawyer
Some people have like a high risk. You know, they don't care about risk. They go in and try anything and other people are more cautious. And, you know, you have to understand, like where you are and what level of risks that you're willing to take. I'm taking risks now, but I'm at the the the the second half of my life, my kids are going through college.
00:25:10:10 - 00:25:17:01
Matt Sawyer
They're both working there. You know, it's they're doing great. So I don't have those same pressures so I can take more risks.
00:25:17:03 - 00:25:17:12
Rob Napoli
Yeah.
00:25:17:22 - 00:25:27:18
Matt Sawyer
But people are different phases, so I don't know, it's a lot of, you know, questioning and questioning yourself and being open.
00:25:28:03 - 00:25:43:16
Rob Napoli
Yeah, I think that's I think that's a great piece of advice is really set a plan and then, you know, get it challenged. Right. I always tell people don't look for validation, look for opposition, right? You want people to challenge you in a positive way because that's how you kind of grow with everyone saying, Yeah, that's a great idea.
00:25:43:16 - 00:26:00:19
Rob Napoli
That's a great idea. Yeah, that's cool, that's cool. And they're not actually telling you how they really feel. It doesn't benefit you. And if you're only looking for that validation, you're only going into circles that are agreeing with you. You're not actually finding that opposition to really lean into and understand. And to that point of, you know, it looks sexy.
00:26:00:19 - 00:26:20:02
Rob Napoli
They get VC M&A money, but, you know, there's other paths. And the other thing to think about is everyone wants to try to be this unicorn. It's like you could have a ten, 50, $60 million business and be extremely happy and have a global business with 100 employees. You don't need to be a unicorn to have that live star.
00:26:20:02 - 00:26:42:08
Rob Napoli
Those things, depending on the impact you want to make. So I love that you kind of push to set a plan and then get it get it validated, but also get it challenged and really understand it, see what the opinions are. Matt, I appreciate you being on the show today. Where can the listeners find you and connect with you to learn more?
00:26:42:24 - 00:27:04:11
Matt Sawyer
Well, certainly on LinkedIn, it's Matthew Lee Sawyer on LinkedIn. And then the the website I have for the book is Matthew Lee Sawyer Two T's and matthewsawyer.com, which has a little bit about the book and about me and and happy to connect with anyone.
00:27:04:17 - 00:27:22:14
Rob Napoli
I said, Well, I'll make sure that they are both in the show notes as well as the link for the preorder and the show notes. You can easily click connect and find that. So Matt, thank you so much. We appreciate having you on Bear Nation. Bear Nation thanks for tuning in. I can tell next time stay well and rise up in.
OUTRO
00:27:24:23 - 00:27:34:16
Rob Napoli
Bear Nation. Thanks for listening to the bare necessities of entrepreneurship. We enjoyed this episode. Please subscribe and leave us a review.